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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode 509 for the 22nd of July 2018

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Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia using folks folks using

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my new yellow tech guy XM microphone

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this is a wonderful microphone this is

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the exact model Maynard has been using

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for years now and may not being a

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professional broadcaster certainly knows

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his stuff when it comes to microphones

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he the other week he let me know that

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one popped up on eBay at a very good

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price so I went for it and luckily I was

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the winning offer and hello

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it's the skeptics own cats I just

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shooter that corn shoot out YouTube

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right captain interrupting the podcast

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anyway I was the winning offer and now I

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have a wonderful professional microphone

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which the year's Maynard's been using

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this have been so impressed this is not

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a promotion for the company yellow tech

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it just happens to be a matter of fact

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that this is a really good microphone

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and it's only because of you or support

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listeners the listeners who financially

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support the skeptics owners kept pigs

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and TV with micro payments or patreon

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that I was able to afford it I hope that

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I'll put it to very good use to bring

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you lots of interesting reports in the

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future but coming up on this week's show

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facilitated communication I'm going to

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read out a story published a little

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earlier this year written by a professor

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of Christopher French and Michael

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Marshall in the UK about a case in the

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UK of what we call facilitated

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communication this is where somebody who

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is profoundly disabled really unable to

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communicate can communicate it seems

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using help it's a bit hard to explain

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and each case is unique but basically

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somebody who's really unable to

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communicate

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looks at their eyes and decides where

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they're looking on a page or holds their

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hand and guides their hand to letters on

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a letter board or something like this

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it's viewed with great skepticism and it

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can be a very interesting and sad case

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of people willingly deceiving themselves

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and it's just filled with all sorts of

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emotions because it's normally the

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parents of very disabled children or

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young people who are involved with this

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we will also be interviewing susan

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gerbic from guerrilla skepticism on

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Wikipedia about this topic as she has

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done a lot of research into this to

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update Wikipedia pages that's all coming

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up at the top of the show following that

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all frightening news for Sydney and the

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world we're going to read out a flyer

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that's been doing the rounds here in

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Sydney warning of a impending tsunami I

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better get my water wings ready and also

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a poster that appeared briefly around

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this area of Sydney the inner west

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warning of geoengineering from the skies

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then the round off the show may night

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interviewed Mike bowler from the

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skeptics guide to conspiracies podcast

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in Chicago talking about death from the

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skies and impending tsunamis and things

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like that

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Mike hosts a weekly show talking about

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all sorts of conspiracy theories from

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9/11 to various assassinations JFK and

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so on and so on and so on and may not

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catches up with Mike to ask him why he

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does his show about his show and I hope

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you'll find this interview very

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interesting or maybe it's just a

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conspiracy but now it's time for me to

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run downstairs and as some people have

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noticed in the past week I took

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possession of something else on eBay a

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microwave chip or crisp maker this is

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something I saw online and I thought oh

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it's only a couple of bucks I'll give it

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a go so it's like a round white sort of

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plastic dish with lots of grooves and it

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raised grooves

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you slice up a potato very finely put

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one slice each in the groove it's about

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time I don't know 30 or 40 grooves put

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it in the microwave for about 10-15

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minutes depending and out pop crispy

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potato crisps with no oil it's really

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nice I'm gonna run downstairs chop up a

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potato put it in the microwave and enjoy

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those while I'm doing that I hope you

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enjoy the sceptic zone

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why communication from a locked-in child

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is a miracle we must question this comes

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to us from The Guardian online written

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by Christopher French and Michael

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Marshall published on the 6th of

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February 2018 if Jonathan Bryan can

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communicate we should celebrate but hard

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evidence is needed before we change how

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severely disabled children are cared for

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[Music]

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there has been much coverage lately

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including the times the mirror the Daily

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Mail and tonight's see BBC documentary

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special of the story of 11 year old

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Jonathan Bryan and his remarkable

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ability to write poetry keep a regular

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blog and communicate with his parents in

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spite of his severe and debilitating

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cerebral palsy now Jonathan who

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communicates via a spelling board with

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the help of a facilitator who carefully

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watches the movements of his eyes is

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using his own experience to campaign for

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a reform of how severely disabled

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children are taught Jonathan has been

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disabled since birth when doctors warned

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that he had suffered such severe brain

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damage such as Jonathan's Guardians

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article last year explained quote the

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MRI scan of my brain was one of the

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worst the technician had seen in quote

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that he may never be able to run walk or

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even recognize his parents with such a

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bleak prognosis the progress Jonathan

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appears to have made is truly remarkable

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quote nothing short of a miracle end

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quote as his parents described it

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Jonathan's apparent ability to

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communicate far beyond what was ever

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predicted for him even outlining his

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nuance to take on the EU referendum

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quote it's time to pull together in

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quote in the Daily Mail in 2016 when he

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was just 10 led to the start of the

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teach us to campaign which has such

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support that Jonathan has presented at

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augmentative and alternative

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communication conferences and has even

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met with MPs to lobby for educational

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changes Jonathan's online petition has

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more than 220,000 signatures as the

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media coverage and Jonathan's blog have

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stressed he is an example of what

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patients who are apparently quote locked

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in in quote fully cognate but unable to

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communicate are capable of achieving

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Jonathan isn't the first locked-in

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patient whose communicative abilities

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have astonished the media in 2006 ROM

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huben was hailed by Bell

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neurologist Steven Lori's for his

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ability to type out his thoughts on a

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keypad via the help of his facilitator

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Linda Walters despite having been in a

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coma for 23 years and assumed to be

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non-communicative Walters interpreted

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subtle movements from humans right hand

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to guide his fingers to the design

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letters in a case that garnered

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international attention shortly after

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his story was published concerns were

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raised over this method of communication

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videos of messages being typed showed

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Walters deftly and quickly moving humans

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hand around his keyboard apparently

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following these subtle indications of

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the locked-in patient crucially even

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when the patient was not looking at the

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keypad

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psychologists familiar with attempts to

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reach non-communicative patients

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recognized humans case for what it was

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facilitated communication facilitated

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communication f-c is a method for

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assisting a nonverbal person in

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communicating where the facilitator is

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guided to choices of letters or words

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via small physical singles from a

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patient the technique rose to prominence

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during the 1980s but subsequent control

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testing reliably demonstrated that

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subjects were unable to produce

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information that had been shown only to

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them in short the messages were not

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coming from the patient's but from the

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facilitators who were quote interpreting

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in quote which letter or word was being

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indicated perhaps most importantly of

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all facilitating communication can be

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done entirely accidentally with no need

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for malice or harmful intent often good

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intentions and the deep desire for

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contact leads the facilitator to spell

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out the messages themselves without even

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realizing convincing themselves that

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they were leaded to a letter or word by

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the subject in much the same way that

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users of dowsing rods convince

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themselves that their tools are leading

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them to water it's all too easy to

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dismiss facilitated communication as

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harmless after all if it works a

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previously uncommunicative person

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able to share their thoughts and connect

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with the world if it doesn't a family

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gets a connection nor be it a force

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connection to someone they love but

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feared they'd never hear from again

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however as with many superficially

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harmless pseudo-sciences there are case

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studies that stress the need for caution

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and reflection including dozens of

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extremely troubling examples in which

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allegations of physical and sexual abuse

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have been made based solely on the

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reports gained by a facilitated

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communication few things could be more

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distressing than the thought of being

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genuinely locked in cognitive unable to

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communicate and forced to watch

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helplessly as you're effectively used as

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a human Ouija board spelling out a

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message that falsely accuses your loved

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ones of terrible and utterly fictitional

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crimes in humans case when concerns were

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raised regarding the veracity of his

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messages independent tests were carried

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out urban was shown a range of objects

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and asked to name them when Hoban was

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unable to name any of the objects shown

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to him when walters was not in the room

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Laurie's accepted that Hoban had not

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been responsible for any of the messages

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and conceded that facilitated

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communication in all it's flawed promise

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and false hope was responsible for

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Homans apparent cognate see once you are

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familiar with facilitated communication

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it's very hard to look at Jonathan

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Brian's remarkable progress and not ask

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some questions I sincerely hope

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Jonathan's case is different from others

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in the past and that his ability to

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outperform children almost twice his age

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and maths merely shows his enthusiasm

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for learning I also hope that despite

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his young age and relatively recent

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literacy that he is genuinely able to

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write the kind of prose littered with

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alliteration and assonance that most

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adults could not achieve

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unfortunately this eloquence Ian's

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fluency termed quote unexpected literacy

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and quote in the scientific literature

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is one of the red flags for facilitated

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communication if the communication is

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actually coming not from an 11 year old

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child but unintentionally from the adult

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charged with interpreting his messages

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00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:03,600
that literacy and numeracy becomes far

281
00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:06,690
less remarkable there are unfortunately

282
00:13:11,780 --> 00:13:09,350
other red flags that are hard to ignore

283
00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:11,790
video footage of Jonathan and his

284
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:13,769
spelling board shows his facilitator

285
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:17,370
nimbly identifying letters at speed even

286
00:13:21,379 --> 00:13:19,050
when Jonathan appears to be looking

287
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,389
elsewhere of course without first-hand

288
00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:23,519
experience we should not rule out that

289
00:13:28,579 --> 00:13:26,430
his facilitator has such experience of

290
00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:28,589
working with Jonathan that she is able

291
00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:31,230
to read these movements accurately but

292
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:33,860
the involvement of a human interpreter

293
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:36,720
invariably introduces the possibility of

294
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:39,870
accidental bias and the kind of issues

295
00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:42,089
we've seen before with facilitated

296
00:13:47,389 --> 00:13:45,029
communication these concerns are hard to

297
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:47,399
dismiss without independent testing and

298
00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:49,920
verification in much of the media

299
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:52,230
reporting of Jonathan's story his

300
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:54,360
spelling board is compared to that used

301
00:13:59,449 --> 00:13:57,240
by Stephen Hawking his own nonverbal

302
00:14:01,939 --> 00:13:59,459
condition is the result of a

303
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:01,949
degenerative disease that has

304
00:14:06,259 --> 00:14:04,380
progressively paralysed him since he

305
00:14:09,230 --> 00:14:06,269
first experienced symptoms as an

306
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:09,240
undergraduate at Cambridge today and we

307
00:14:13,009 --> 00:14:10,980
remembered that this story was written

308
00:14:15,019 --> 00:14:13,019
earlier this year today

309
00:14:17,389 --> 00:14:15,029
Hawking communicates via highly

310
00:14:18,319 --> 00:14:17,399
sensitive sensors rather than a manual

311
00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:18,329
spelling board

312
00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:21,660
Jonathan too has tried a technological

313
00:14:26,509 --> 00:14:24,300
solution and eye gaze system that

314
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:26,519
monitors and accurately reacts to the

315
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:29,670
subtle movements of the eyes however his

316
00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:32,760
attempts were in vain as he explained to

317
00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:35,220
the Guardian quote it was frustrating

318
00:14:39,740 --> 00:14:36,990
because the computer couldn't read my

319
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:39,750
eyes very well but my mother and carers

320
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:41,250
could n quote

321
00:14:46,340 --> 00:14:43,740
in fact as The Times reported quote when

322
00:14:49,249 --> 00:14:46,350
his mother offered him the new eye gaze

323
00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:49,259
technology for communication he didn't

324
00:14:52,999 --> 00:14:51,630
like it and said quote chuck it out the

325
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:53,009
window in quote

326
00:14:57,769 --> 00:14:55,680
it may be legitimately the case that

327
00:14:59,120 --> 00:14:57,779
Jonathan didn't like the new technology

328
00:14:59,870 --> 00:14:59,130
and preferred to work with his

329
00:15:02,780 --> 00:14:59,880
communicator

330
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:02,790
but sadly there is another less hopeful

331
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:05,100
explanation for the failure of the

332
00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:07,890
eye-gaze system if Jonathan's messages

333
00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:10,260
were actually the result of facilitated

334
00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:13,320
communication as prone to accidental

335
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:15,960
bias and unintentional human influence

336
00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:18,690
as it is the accurate eye tracking

337
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:21,390
technology would remove that bias and

338
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:23,490
offer a true reflection of Jonathan's

339
00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:26,910
ability to communicate or lack of such

340
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:29,400
ability it is important to stress that I

341
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:31,470
haven't met Jonathan his parents or his

342
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:33,930
facilitator it might be that they have

343
00:15:38,510 --> 00:15:35,970
already carried out the kind of simple

344
00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:38,520
careful tests that would ascertain for

345
00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:40,920
sure that the messages being written are

346
00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:44,190
coming directly from Jonathan nice and

347
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:46,200
silly hope so and that Jonathan

348
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,410
genuinely is the smart thoughtful

349
00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:51,120
astonishingly mature young boy he seems

350
00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:53,640
to be in his writing I wish nothing but

351
00:15:59,660 --> 00:15:56,190
the best of health to him and whatever

352
00:16:01,760 --> 00:15:59,670
level of academic ability he has it's

353
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:01,770
clear he has a family who loved him

354
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:02,220
deeply

355
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:05,730
however before any decisions are made to

356
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:09,390
radically change the way we care for and

357
00:16:14,390 --> 00:16:11,850
teach severely disabled children it's

358
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:14,400
vital that the methods of communication

359
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:16,080
that justify these changes are

360
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:19,230
thoroughly independently and unbiased

361
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:22,050
Lee tested and proven to be accurate

362
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:25,500
it's hard to ask tough questions when

363
00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:27,810
you so badly want something to be true

364
00:16:33,290 --> 00:16:30,630
but it's even harder to find out that

365
00:16:35,450 --> 00:16:33,300
you've caused inadvertent harm to

366
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:35,460
vulnerable children simply because those

367
00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:39,690
questions were never asked professor

368
00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:41,640
Christopher French's head of the

369
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:44,580
anomalistic psychology Research Unit in

370
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,410
the Department of Psychology at

371
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:49,440
Goldsmiths University London Michael

372
00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:51,930
Marshall is project director at the good

373
00:16:57,290 --> 00:16:54,270
thinking society and vice president of

374
00:16:59,630 --> 00:16:57,300
the Mersey skeptic Society and of course

375
00:17:01,220 --> 00:16:59,640
I will supply a link to this article on

376
00:17:03,140 --> 00:17:01,230
the show notes and thank you to Michael

377
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:03,150
Marshall for pointing this article out

378
00:17:13,329 --> 00:17:11,650
joining me now on the line as she often

379
00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:13,339
does all the way from Salinas California

380
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:16,579
from guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia

381
00:17:21,730 --> 00:17:20,240
susan gerbic hello Susan hi Richard

382
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:21,740
great to catch up with you of course

383
00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:23,120
it's always great to catch up with you

384
00:17:28,419 --> 00:17:26,030
before we get started into this

385
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:28,429
interesting and somewhat troubling

386
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:30,610
subject of facilitated communication

387
00:17:37,060 --> 00:17:33,530
what's the latest news with guerrilla

388
00:17:40,419 --> 00:17:37,070
skepticism Wow well guerrilla skepticism

389
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:40,429
as usual is doing just great we've just

390
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:44,330
added our I think six hundred and fifty

391
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,730
eight or something like that Wikipedia

392
00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:48,799
page and just get twenty eight million

393
00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:51,289
six hundred and twenty thousand four

394
00:17:58,029 --> 00:17:53,780
hundred and nine wikipedia page views

395
00:18:00,730 --> 00:17:58,039
Wow but who's counting right yeah what

396
00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:00,740
we're counting just the pages that we've

397
00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:03,230
worked on and done serious work on not

398
00:18:09,159 --> 00:18:06,230
just the small edits we do all the time

399
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:09,169
wow that must keep you very busy

400
00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:13,730
I love it it's a full-time job I don't

401
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:15,740
get to edit as much as I did in the past

402
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:19,130
I'm more of managing people and training

403
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:21,610
which is really what I enjoy the most

404
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:24,140
that's fantastic now we'll get to some

405
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:25,970
more news about what you'll be doing

406
00:18:31,779 --> 00:18:28,750
soon but let's look at this subject of

407
00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:31,789
facilitated communication so I've known

408
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:33,500
about this subject for quite some time

409
00:18:36,909 --> 00:18:35,450
because many years ago my good friend

410
00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:36,919
professor Paul Willis who was working

411
00:18:42,010 --> 00:18:40,220
for ABC radio at the time did a series

412
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:42,020
which is still available online and I

413
00:18:46,810 --> 00:18:43,850
will add a link in the show notes called

414
00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:46,820
the core X Files and in one of these

415
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:48,590
little episodes it was sort of like

416
00:18:53,770 --> 00:18:51,940
skeptoid before skeptoid he talks about

417
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:53,780
facilitated communication and he

418
00:18:59,980 --> 00:18:56,510
interviews James Randi and that's where

419
00:19:02,260 --> 00:18:59,990
I first heard about this but I noticed

420
00:19:04,899 --> 00:19:02,270
just lately over the past week or so

421
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:04,909
you've been publishing articles about

422
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:06,530
this yourself what's your interest in

423
00:19:11,529 --> 00:19:09,620
this well I have been aware of

424
00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:11,539
facilitated communication for a few

425
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:14,600
years after making the acquaintance of

426
00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:17,570
some of the more prominent people in the

427
00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:20,750
unity okay on our team and what I've

428
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:22,580
done is I've been listening for a long

429
00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:26,090
time to people saying you know we got to

430
00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:28,100
do something better do something most of

431
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:29,960
the people we've been hearing from are

432
00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:32,030
the academics they tend to have a

433
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:33,980
different way of doing things and that

434
00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:37,280
is to write and to research and to

435
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:40,430
publish well that's not how I do things

436
00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:44,210
I'm much more of a doer so a while ago I

437
00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:46,580
thought you know what let's take this on

438
00:19:51,610 --> 00:19:49,160
so the first thing we did is it's a

439
00:19:54,370 --> 00:19:51,620
five-step plan the first thing we did

440
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:54,380
was to rewrite the Wikipedia pages for

441
00:20:00,460 --> 00:19:58,160
facilitated communication for rapid

442
00:20:02,790 --> 00:20:00,470
prompting method which is just kind of

443
00:20:05,950 --> 00:20:02,800
the same thing that's like a cousin to

444
00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:05,960
facilitated communication and also we've

445
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:07,670
been working on Wikipedia pages for

446
00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:09,770
people associated with facilitated

447
00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:13,220
communication my idea was that when the

448
00:20:16,660 --> 00:20:15,080
media when we try to go to the media and

449
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:16,670
try to go to the public to end

450
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:19,010
facilitated communication we need to

451
00:20:22,810 --> 00:20:20,210
make sure that they have a way of

452
00:20:25,870 --> 00:20:22,820
understanding what it is we don't want

453
00:20:27,370 --> 00:20:25,880
to read debate it we don't need to go

454
00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:27,380
back and have the discussion does it

455
00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:30,020
work anymore it's it's it doesn't work

456
00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:33,020
it's been it's been debunked 30 years or

457
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:35,660
more ago yes it reminds me of that old

458
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:38,110
expression we use from time to time

459
00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:41,450
unsinkable rubber ducks right and I

460
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,550
think that we don't have a great plan in

461
00:20:49,330 --> 00:20:45,520
the skeptic community how to deal with

462
00:20:52,020 --> 00:20:49,340
unsinkable rubber ducks we need to stop

463
00:20:54,730 --> 00:20:52,030
fighting them on their terms trying to

464
00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:54,740
debunk them and write another article

465
00:21:00,460 --> 00:20:57,550
about it we need to be done with that so

466
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:00,470
the first step as I said was to make

467
00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:02,090
sure that the wikipedia pages were in

468
00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:03,920
terrific shape and they are anybody

469
00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:05,660
wants to read the facilitating

470
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:08,270
communication or rapid prompting method

471
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:11,360
Wikipedia pages plus various people that

472
00:21:14,350 --> 00:21:13,370
are mentioned on there but those pages

473
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:14,360
are in terrific shape

474
00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:16,490
the second thing was to get together a

475
00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:20,360
group of people who were experts and we

476
00:21:27,010 --> 00:21:24,830
have oh gosh maybe 30 40 PhDs

477
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:27,020
most of them are experts in the medical

478
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:29,960
field or in facilitated communication or

479
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:34,820
you know experts on autism and things

480
00:21:41,299 --> 00:21:37,320
like that so we have about 40 people who

481
00:21:45,259 --> 00:21:41,309
have letters after their name and we

482
00:21:47,049 --> 00:21:45,269
wrote we picked one one goal and that

483
00:21:51,649 --> 00:21:47,059
was my third thing is to pick a goal

484
00:21:54,619 --> 00:21:51,659
with a limited time and we picked the

485
00:21:56,090 --> 00:21:54,629
University of Northern Iowa the reason

486
00:21:59,779 --> 00:21:56,100
why we picked University of Northern

487
00:22:04,369 --> 00:21:59,789
Iowa is because they are offering a

488
00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:04,379
facilitated communication workshop they

489
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:07,500
had it last June and this is their fifth

490
00:22:12,169 --> 00:22:09,690
year doing it and they're supporting

491
00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:12,179
facilitated communication using the name

492
00:22:16,269 --> 00:22:13,769
of a university this is a public

493
00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:16,279
university who is supporting a

494
00:22:20,899 --> 00:22:18,179
facilitated communication for whatever

495
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:20,909
reason we don't know so the next thing

496
00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:24,200
we did was we sent a very well-written

497
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:28,200
professional letter to the university to

498
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:30,210
the deans and copy and everybody we

499
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,190
possibly could and explain to them that

500
00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:34,320
facilitated communication is not only a

501
00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:35,340
pseudoscience

502
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:38,580
but it's harmful you're taking the

503
00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:40,980
voices of those people because the

504
00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:42,840
people that you think you're

505
00:22:49,399 --> 00:22:47,340
facilitating are not facilitating they

506
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:49,409
you're putting words in their mouth so

507
00:22:57,799 --> 00:22:54,330
we changed our name to be called true

508
00:22:59,720 --> 00:22:57,809
voices we took over that phrase as in

509
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,730
you know we're trying to take the high

510
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:01,200
road because that's what they do they

511
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,500
say oh we're we're really you know you

512
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:06,480
guys are evil and me and you skeptics

513
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:08,129
you want to take the voices away from

514
00:23:13,639 --> 00:23:10,110
our people and what we're trying to say

515
00:23:17,539 --> 00:23:13,649
is no we're not taking the voices away

516
00:23:20,869 --> 00:23:17,549
you are so we came up with the term true

517
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:20,879
voices and we wrote to them and also we

518
00:23:27,379 --> 00:23:23,610
put them on notice we said University of

519
00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:27,389
Northern Iowa if you are accused or if

520
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:30,980
anybody comes out of your training is

521
00:23:36,499 --> 00:23:35,039
accused of a crime you're liable because

522
00:23:38,869 --> 00:23:36,509
you've been made aware that this is

523
00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:38,879
pseudoscience they won't be able to go

524
00:23:42,919 --> 00:23:41,070
to court later and say we did not know

525
00:23:44,570 --> 00:23:42,929
that facilitated communication is of a

526
00:23:45,379 --> 00:23:44,580
pseudoscience we did not know that it

527
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:45,389
does not cost

528
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:49,200
cause harm and so on so we were going at

529
00:23:53,149 --> 00:23:51,570
it from that perspective so we've had

530
00:23:56,599 --> 00:23:53,159
some results with the University of

531
00:24:00,579 --> 00:23:56,609
Northern Iowa at first when we sent the

532
00:24:03,409 --> 00:24:00,589
letter to them they the Dean responded

533
00:24:06,859 --> 00:24:03,419
that they were going to go ahead with

534
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:06,869
the next workshop in 2019 and if the

535
00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:09,929
faculty wanted to they could become

536
00:24:14,719 --> 00:24:12,529
involved in the planning of the

537
00:24:18,829 --> 00:24:14,729
facilitated communication process

538
00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:18,839
workshop after a few weeks of media

539
00:24:23,629 --> 00:24:21,869
coverage really pretty much embarrassing

540
00:24:25,789 --> 00:24:23,639
the University of Northern Iowa which

541
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:25,799
was our plan that's kind of not very

542
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:27,570
nicely said but that's really what we

543
00:24:30,829 --> 00:24:29,070
were trying to do we asked them nicely

544
00:24:33,199 --> 00:24:30,839
and when they didn't respond we thought

545
00:24:34,999 --> 00:24:33,209
we had to be a lot more aggressive they

546
00:24:39,009 --> 00:24:35,009
finally responded saying that they're

547
00:24:40,999 --> 00:24:39,019
gonna have a meeting and they may not be

548
00:24:44,269 --> 00:24:41,009
associating with facilitated

549
00:24:45,979 --> 00:24:44,279
communication in the future we may have

550
00:24:47,810 --> 00:24:45,989
we're waiting to find out the results of

551
00:24:49,639 --> 00:24:47,820
that meeting so now what we're doing

552
00:24:52,009 --> 00:24:49,649
since we have a group all together and

553
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:52,019
we have were motivated and organized and

554
00:24:57,979 --> 00:24:53,809
we have everything else done correctly

555
00:25:00,819 --> 00:24:57,989
as far as you know know who to contact

556
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:00,829
and what's going on we're gonna go after

557
00:25:06,249 --> 00:25:04,200
University of Syracuse in New York which

558
00:25:08,329 --> 00:25:06,259
is the big dog that is where the hub of

559
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:08,339
facilitated communication is that's

560
00:25:14,149 --> 00:25:10,769
where the money is they're having a

561
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:14,159
workshop a conference in I believe it's

562
00:25:19,609 --> 00:25:16,049
September or October I can't remember

563
00:25:21,829 --> 00:25:19,619
off and and we're going to be trying the

564
00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:21,839
same tactics with them to try to get

565
00:25:27,769 --> 00:25:25,049
them to comply and in their association

566
00:25:30,379 --> 00:25:27,779
with facilitated communication that's

567
00:25:32,060 --> 00:25:30,389
very interesting and as I said before it

568
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:32,070
was first brought to my attention in

569
00:25:37,249 --> 00:25:34,950
this show called the corrects files and

570
00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:37,259
I encourage listeners to click on the

571
00:25:41,959 --> 00:25:38,820
link in the show notes and you can read

572
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:41,969
Paul Willis interviewing James Randi all

573
00:25:45,889 --> 00:25:42,570
about it

574
00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:45,899
well Susan it's interesting because from

575
00:25:50,419 --> 00:25:48,539
our point of view and the analogy has

576
00:25:52,909 --> 00:25:50,429
been made to the ideomotor action or

577
00:25:55,099 --> 00:25:52,919
dowsing and it would seem that the

578
00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:55,109
facilitators in some cases at least are

579
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:57,240
innocently

580
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:00,480
they're are helping people to

581
00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:02,730
communicate but from our point of view -

582
00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:04,740
with our experience in testing these

583
00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:07,140
sort of things that would be yes I guess

584
00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:10,620
relatively easy to construct the test to

585
00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:12,180
see whether the the person the

586
00:26:18,530 --> 00:26:15,060
incapacitated person does have the true

587
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:18,540
power of which was claimed for them that

588
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:21,090
to be able to think well and communicate

589
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:23,220
and so forth and the classic example

590
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:24,390
would be simply to have a conversation

591
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:27,090
with this person away from the

592
00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:29,390
facilitators and then ask the

593
00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:32,820
facilitators to translate the thoughts

594
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:35,190
of the person and when that's been done

595
00:26:37,270 --> 00:26:36,480
in the past of course nothing has

596
00:26:42,410 --> 00:26:37,280
happened

597
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:42,420
absolutely from our point of view I

598
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:44,430
think so of course that would vary on a

599
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:46,290
case-by-case basis and we'll certainly

600
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:49,710
check out the updated Wikipedia and you

601
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:52,050
might also want to include this link to

602
00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:53,490
this piece by James Randi and Paul

603
00:26:58,340 --> 00:26:56,310
Willis it might already be there we've

604
00:27:01,340 --> 00:26:58,350
got everything but the kitchen sink in

605
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:01,350
there I'll have to check it out no yeah

606
00:27:08,410 --> 00:27:04,170
quite quite extensive it's we even add

607
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:08,420
all the case histories of harm we have

608
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:13,110
included all kinds of things they say

609
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:16,050
that you know they're there their

610
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:17,760
studies or whatever that say that it

611
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:20,310
works and also the rebuttal we have a

612
00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:22,200
hundred and eighty-three citations

613
00:27:27,770 --> 00:27:25,560
Wow wow that's that's extensive that's

614
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:27,780
extensive stuff now apart from that

615
00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:29,850
Susan I understand that you'll shortly

616
00:27:35,030 --> 00:27:32,310
be on tour what can you tell us about

617
00:27:38,450 --> 00:27:35,040
that oh yes I'm going to be travelling

618
00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:38,460
around doing the Wikipedia talk trying

619
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,140
to get more people to come and edit for

620
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:42,720
us I'm going to be leaving in a few days

621
00:27:50,570 --> 00:27:47,310
I'm going in July to doing North Western

622
00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:50,580
tour I'm going up to Seattle Washington

623
00:27:57,010 --> 00:27:54,180
and then driving home and I think I'm

624
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:57,020
taking ten days and doing eight lectures

625
00:28:02,420 --> 00:28:00,000
wow that's that's fantastic and that

626
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:02,430
part of the country is beautiful right

627
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:04,530
so I'm going to be speaking in two

628
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,130
lectures in Seattle one in Tacoma

629
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:10,080
Portland Oregon Eugene Oregon

630
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:13,919
in Oregon Humboldt California Sacramento

631
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:17,370
and then home so if you're somebody who

632
00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:20,370
is in that area please check out our

633
00:28:27,649 --> 00:28:22,500
website you can get all the details from

634
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:27,659
my about time project wordpress.com and

635
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:30,690
you can see Jesus or W on tour and you

636
00:28:33,139 --> 00:28:32,190
can get all the details we have all the

637
00:28:35,060 --> 00:28:33,149
links there for you

638
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:35,070
that's fantastic look folks if you're

639
00:28:39,259 --> 00:28:37,289
not in that area yourself but you know

640
00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:39,269
people who might be interested please

641
00:28:43,610 --> 00:28:41,100
let them know please let them know I've

642
00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:43,620
attended many talks and lectures by

643
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:45,320
susan gerbic and they're always

644
00:28:50,690 --> 00:28:49,110
fascinating and you learn so much you

645
00:28:53,389 --> 00:28:50,700
really do well Susan we'll keep an eye

646
00:28:55,129 --> 00:28:53,399
on this story of the facilitated

647
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:55,139
communications folks in this week's show

648
00:29:00,680 --> 00:28:57,000
notes I'll also add a link to the video

649
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:00,690
and you can see this young boy Jonathan

650
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:05,010
Bryan for yourself and you can see what

651
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:08,130
you make of it from the the video but

652
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:10,529
for now susan gerbic with your lovely

653
00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:12,510
theme music coming up thank you very

654
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:15,160
much thank you Richard

655
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,299
[Music]

656
00:29:40,810 --> 00:29:39,040
hi g'day I'm going to Karl and I wanted

657
00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:40,820
to be speaking as skeptic on Australia

658
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:43,820
2018 and first were the hippies right

659
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:45,890
when they said that reality is only for

660
00:29:50,049 --> 00:29:48,559
people who can't handle drugs well we're

661
00:29:51,730 --> 00:29:50,059
going to explore that so what is the

662
00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:51,740
real colour of the universe do people

663
00:29:58,419 --> 00:29:54,470
use only 10% of their brain do the seven

664
00:30:00,190 --> 00:29:58,429
deadly sins actually still exist do diet

665
00:30:02,770 --> 00:30:00,200
drinks get you drunker

666
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:02,780
how can you tell quickly if a list of

667
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:05,270
numbers is faked and are we living in

668
00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:08,450
the best or the worst of times and what

669
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:10,580
generates more power on a weight per

670
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:13,730
weight and volume 4 volume basis the Sun

671
00:30:21,390 --> 00:30:16,490
or your compost pile and worst of all

672
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:24,880
meet dr. Karl cruising risky at skeptic

673
00:30:31,030 --> 00:30:28,130
on 2018 the Australian skeptics National

674
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:31,040
Convention October the 13th and 14th at

675
00:30:37,570 --> 00:30:33,410
the Concours Chatswood tickets available

676
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:37,580
at Convention knob sceptics dot-com got

677
00:30:54,590 --> 00:30:38,620
a you

678
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,510
[Music]

679
00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:02,210
here's some unsettling news for those of

680
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:04,740
you living and listening to the show in

681
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:09,150
Sydney this flyer has been appearing in

682
00:31:15,890 --> 00:31:12,870
letter boxes around the city it's an

683
00:31:18,049 --> 00:31:15,900
interesting piece of work it shows the

684
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:18,059
Sydney Opera House and the Sydney

685
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:21,809
Harbour Bridge being engulfed by a

686
00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:25,890
tsunami and the heading says a prophetic

687
00:31:33,670 --> 00:31:29,929
warning from God tsunami to hit Sydney

688
00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:33,680
20th of September 2018

689
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:36,070
[Applause]

690
00:31:44,269 --> 00:31:39,570
[Music]

691
00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:44,279
and in the last days it shall be God and

692
00:31:51,229 --> 00:31:47,999
declares that I will pour out my holy

693
00:31:54,619 --> 00:31:51,239
spirit on all flesh your young men shall

694
00:31:57,139 --> 00:31:54,629
see visions and your old men shall dream

695
00:32:01,369 --> 00:31:57,149
dreams end quote

696
00:32:04,580 --> 00:32:01,379
acts 2:17 the spirit of Jesus is the

697
00:32:07,879 --> 00:32:04,590
spirit of prophecy only Jesus knows the

698
00:32:12,649 --> 00:32:07,889
end from the beginning for he alone is

699
00:32:15,619 --> 00:32:12,659
God the Alpha and the Omega quote I have

700
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:15,629
declared the former things from the

701
00:32:20,049 --> 00:32:17,849
beginning they went forth from my mouth

702
00:32:22,729 --> 00:32:20,059
and I caused them to hear it

703
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:22,739
suddenly I did them and they came to

704
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:28,559
pass in quote Isaiah 48 3 it goes on for

705
00:32:34,249 --> 00:32:31,710
many years Christ Jesus has been

706
00:32:37,399 --> 00:32:34,259
speaking to his people who are born

707
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:37,409
again of his holy spirit through visions

708
00:32:43,479 --> 00:32:39,960
and dreams warning them of an awful

709
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:43,489
devastation to befall the City of Sydney

710
00:32:52,580 --> 00:32:48,090
from Newcastle to the north to Nara in

711
00:32:55,719 --> 00:32:52,590
the South a tsunami of such magnitude is

712
00:32:58,820 --> 00:32:55,729
going to hit the coastline that up to

713
00:33:02,239 --> 00:32:58,830
400,000 people are going to lose their

714
00:33:06,139 --> 00:33:02,249
lives the East and foreshore will be

715
00:33:08,930 --> 00:33:06,149
destroyed Cronulla Bondi manly gone

716
00:33:12,889 --> 00:33:08,940
Harborside suburbs such as Balmain and

717
00:33:16,129 --> 00:33:12,899
Kiera Billy swept away flood waters this

718
00:33:19,219 --> 00:33:16,139
far as Parramatta the sin Gorge region

719
00:33:22,399 --> 00:33:19,229
will be inundated as will Port Jackson

720
00:33:25,219 --> 00:33:22,409
and the airport the Sydney CBD or

721
00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:25,229
central business district will be

722
00:33:30,529 --> 00:33:27,779
flooded and the Sydney Harbour Bridge

723
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,539
destroyed that would be a pity I just

724
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:32,159
walked over the Sydney Harbour Bridge

725
00:33:37,719 --> 00:33:34,799
the other day immediately after the

726
00:33:44,210 --> 00:33:37,729
tsunami an earthquake shall take place

727
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:44,220
entirely contrary to nature okay the CBD

728
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,039
and inner suburbs such as Newtown shall

729
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:48,960
be destroyed now that is a pity there's

730
00:33:52,940 --> 00:33:51,090
some great restaurants in Newtown such

731
00:33:56,299 --> 00:33:52,950
carnage shows you that

732
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:56,309
martial law will be imposed hardly

733
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:57,120
surprising

734
00:34:03,919 --> 00:34:00,419
the epicenter is four kilometres from

735
00:34:07,639 --> 00:34:03,929
the coast so close that no forewarning

736
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:07,649
can be given apart from this one it

737
00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:11,669
seems and can be given for people to

738
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:14,820
respond and save their lives this is

739
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,649
your hour of warning yes a very

740
00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:24,720
troubling the flyer appearing in

741
00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:26,790
letterboxes although it's slightly

742
00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:29,940
curious that the picture of the tsunami

743
00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:32,460
hitting the Sydney Opera House

744
00:34:38,089 --> 00:34:35,399
the tsunami appears to be coming from

745
00:34:40,399 --> 00:34:38,099
inland and if you know the geography of

746
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:40,409
the Sydney Opera House which is a bit

747
00:34:47,629 --> 00:34:44,250
odd anyway a prophetic warning from God

748
00:34:50,089 --> 00:34:47,639
for the residents of Sydney and I'm sure

749
00:34:56,530 --> 00:34:50,099
we'll have a party on the 21st of

750
00:35:01,809 --> 00:34:58,510
[Music]

751
00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:01,819
now not to be outdone somebody else

752
00:35:09,770 --> 00:35:05,270
presumably somebody else recently in the

753
00:35:12,890 --> 00:35:09,780
inner west area of Sydney on railway

754
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:12,900
bridges and along roadsides plastered

755
00:35:20,059 --> 00:35:15,359
over advertising posters for other

756
00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:20,069
companies in this case Apple big posters

757
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:26,460
yellow red black and grey with a jet

758
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:30,990
with red admissions coming from the the

759
00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:35,040
engines like condensation trails big

760
00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:39,060
letters weather modification exclamation

761
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:41,630
mark on the other side but anyway

762
00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:45,890
droughts melting ice caps and glaciers

763
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:51,200
bee colony collapse masts tree die offs

764
00:35:58,849 --> 00:35:54,770
atmospheric saturation of methane

765
00:36:02,530 --> 00:35:58,859
extreme bush fires reduced vitamin D

766
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:02,540
production shortage of food supply

767
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:05,810
respiratory illness epidemic epidemic

768
00:36:14,740 --> 00:36:09,300
neurological disorders increased UV and

769
00:36:19,839 --> 00:36:14,750
skin cancer complete global omnis i'd

770
00:36:25,130 --> 00:36:19,849
join the fight help end this crime

771
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:25,140
geoengineering watch.org frightening

772
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:27,810
stuff frightening stuff and what's even

773
00:36:33,620 --> 00:36:30,900
more mysterious is these posters

774
00:36:36,859 --> 00:36:33,630
appeared for about 24 hours and they

775
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:36,869
all vanished luckily I took the

776
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:38,640
opportunity to take a picture of them

777
00:36:42,829 --> 00:36:41,460
and here's another one for the

778
00:36:44,660 --> 00:36:42,839
conspiracy theorists though I don't

779
00:36:46,579 --> 00:36:44,670
think it's much of a conspiracy theory

780
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:46,589
oh by the way there's also a large skull

781
00:36:51,259 --> 00:36:49,740
and crossbones on this poster yes there

782
00:36:53,289 --> 00:36:51,269
so the one for the conspiracy theorists

783
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:53,299
not much of a conspiracy here these

784
00:36:59,660 --> 00:36:56,160
happened to be in the locations I saw

785
00:37:02,620 --> 00:36:59,670
them plastered all over advertising for

786
00:37:06,890 --> 00:37:02,630
Apple and the next day they were gone

787
00:37:08,770 --> 00:37:06,900
mmm make of that what you will

788
00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:08,780
[Music]

789
00:37:22,970 --> 00:37:19,519
oh hi Maynard

790
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:22,980
oh hi Heidi great day in this park yeah

791
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:25,710
if you like that sort of thing look over

792
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:29,490
there oh yeah we there are no such

793
00:37:37,609 --> 00:37:34,010
things as URIs silly hmm might be just

794
00:37:39,170 --> 00:37:37,619
dog a big dog I think it's a King

795
00:37:43,220 --> 00:37:39,180
Charles Spaniel thing

796
00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:43,230
mmm no no no no no it's a Yowie Maynard

797
00:37:47,299 --> 00:37:46,020
if it's a choice between it being a dog

798
00:37:50,809 --> 00:37:47,309
or a Yowie

799
00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:50,819
no no no it's ii yo ii yo ii yo ii yo ii

800
00:37:57,289 --> 00:37:52,920
yo ii argument from Authority

801
00:38:00,140 --> 00:37:57,299
it's yo e are you - what are you arguing

802
00:38:03,730 --> 00:38:00,150
about may not thinks that dog lookin

803
00:38:08,059 --> 00:38:03,740
thing over there is a Yowie uh yeah II

804
00:38:11,359 --> 00:38:08,069
well maybe Chu Becker the wookie over

805
00:38:14,029 --> 00:38:11,369
her I see okay we better look this up in

806
00:38:16,609 --> 00:38:14,039
the skeptics dictionary online though

807
00:38:19,279 --> 00:38:16,619
wow the skeptics dictionary online

808
00:38:21,890 --> 00:38:19,289
features definitions arguments and

809
00:38:24,349 --> 00:38:21,900
essays on hundreds of strange beliefs

810
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:24,359
amusing descriptions and dangerous

811
00:38:30,109 --> 00:38:27,390
delusions also features dozens of

812
00:38:34,269 --> 00:38:30,119
entries on logical fallacies cognitive

813
00:38:45,579 --> 00:38:34,279
biases perception science and philosophy

814
00:38:51,740 --> 00:38:45,589
it's wwws ke p di c common right ha d

815
00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:51,750
prepared to be amazed okay ah here it is

816
00:38:58,940 --> 00:38:56,430
send a Bigfoot it says most scientists

817
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:58,950
discount the evidence of Bigfoot because

818
00:39:04,490 --> 00:39:00,960
the evidence supporting belief in the

819
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:04,500
survival of the historic biped ape-like

820
00:39:10,970 --> 00:39:08,640
creature of such dimensions is scant you

821
00:39:16,130 --> 00:39:10,980
know maybe that is just Chewbacca after

822
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:28,460
thank you skeptics dictionary online

823
00:39:37,770 --> 00:39:33,660
years may not spooky action at the

824
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:37,780
distance well ladies and gentlemen you

825
00:39:41,010 --> 00:39:39,370
having trouble keeping up with all the

826
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:41,020
conspiracies and things that are

827
00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:42,490
floating around the internet around the

828
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:44,470
world and around your pub well here's a

829
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:46,390
guy who's got the show for you on the

830
00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:48,400
line I've got Mike bowler from Chicago

831
00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:50,920
the second city the Windy City but most

832
00:39:55,650 --> 00:39:52,780
importantly my kind of town

833
00:39:59,130 --> 00:39:55,660
Mike bowlers hosts a skeptics guide to

834
00:40:00,960 --> 00:39:59,140
conspiracy podcast a weekly show even

835
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:00,970
when he's on vacation even when he's on

836
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,650
holidays he's there every week for you

837
00:40:06,180 --> 00:40:04,480
letting you know who's doing what where

838
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:06,190
in the world of conspiracies is is that

839
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:09,250
an adequate introduction Mike yeah I

840
00:40:16,050 --> 00:40:13,450
would say so maybe a little bit over the

841
00:40:17,550 --> 00:40:16,060
top but I'm cool with that I think it's

842
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:17,560
about time you got a bit over the top

843
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:19,060
nurse because you've been doing shows

844
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:20,560
even when you're supposed to be on

845
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:23,200
vacation or holidays as we say here in

846
00:40:28,850 --> 00:40:25,330
Australia I just can't get away from it

847
00:40:31,310 --> 00:40:28,860
I think with our current administration

848
00:40:34,110 --> 00:40:31,320
that's trying to run our country

849
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:34,120
everything's come up a notch I'm just

850
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:36,010
trying to keep up with it now I mean it

851
00:40:39,930 --> 00:40:37,330
used to be pretty easy you know you get

852
00:40:41,790 --> 00:40:39,940
your you know if people think that the

853
00:40:44,070 --> 00:40:41,800
government takes down buildings in New

854
00:40:47,730 --> 00:40:44,080
York or you know stuff like that but now

855
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:47,740
it's like yeah I gotta say yeah cuz I

856
00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:49,540
mean with just the work of Alex Jones

857
00:40:52,890 --> 00:40:51,700
and the Trump administration alone that

858
00:40:56,190 --> 00:40:52,900
would keep you in business for life

859
00:40:59,340 --> 00:40:56,200
easily very easily when did you decide

860
00:41:00,840 --> 00:40:59,350
to do a weekly conspiracy show summing

861
00:41:03,060 --> 00:41:00,850
up things was there something that

862
00:41:04,770 --> 00:41:03,070
tripped you as at some point on you're

863
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:04,780
sort of skeptical journey oh and hang on

864
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:06,910
it's about time this was logged on a

865
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:10,000
weekly basis well actually it was the

866
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:15,040
election here I saw a lot of a lot of

867
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:17,290
conspiracy type talk I mean I've been

868
00:41:23,310 --> 00:41:20,530
following Alex Jones for years when I

869
00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:23,320
first started the podcast you know it

870
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:25,630
seemed like all of a sudden like now

871
00:41:30,850 --> 00:41:26,990
Alex Jones his

872
00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:30,860
I'm legitimized by having this this guy

873
00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:34,520
in the White House so and it kind of

874
00:41:38,020 --> 00:41:36,230
kicked things up a little bit and it was

875
00:41:41,140 --> 00:41:38,030
like you know what maybe it is a good

876
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:41,150
idea plus I was getting lazy there for a

877
00:41:46,890 --> 00:41:43,730
little bit and actually I was I think I

878
00:41:50,350 --> 00:41:46,900
was off for a couple months and

879
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:50,360
constantly researching it I'm a big

880
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:53,090
history nut so I like to study hitting

881
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:54,170
you know study of the histories and

882
00:42:00,130 --> 00:41:57,440
stuff like that knowing the history and

883
00:42:03,130 --> 00:42:00,140
seeing what's being portrayed in the

884
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:03,140
media or on TV even you know how movies

885
00:42:07,540 --> 00:42:05,240
they they mix up or mess around with

886
00:42:08,890 --> 00:42:07,550
history a little bit trying to come up

887
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:08,900
with these stories and then all of a

888
00:42:14,410 --> 00:42:12,170
sudden we get Donald Trump who you know

889
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:14,420
he's the guy who you know with the Obama

890
00:42:19,359 --> 00:42:17,150
birth certificate and he's talked about

891
00:42:21,310 --> 00:42:19,369
all sorts of stuff when I first started

892
00:42:25,780 --> 00:42:21,320
the podcast I the first show I did was

893
00:42:28,330 --> 00:42:25,790
the 1919 Black Sox scandal where the the

894
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:28,340
Chicago White Sox threw the World Series

895
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:32,150
and doing that research and it's like I

896
00:42:37,390 --> 00:42:35,030
come across an article that magically

897
00:42:42,310 --> 00:42:37,400
these depositions that disappeared from

898
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:42,320
the court Oh actually reappeared and in

899
00:42:47,290 --> 00:42:44,810
the lawyers who had represented the the

900
00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:47,300
players in their files they found these

901
00:42:52,750 --> 00:42:50,140
depositions that disappeared so

902
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:52,760
anything's possible and it goes on a

903
00:42:56,830 --> 00:42:54,800
weekly basis it seems to change so often

904
00:42:59,050 --> 00:42:56,840
where's your stance on Alex Jones

905
00:43:01,570 --> 00:42:59,060
originally I found him like as an

906
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:01,580
entertainer I found him quite funny but

907
00:43:05,710 --> 00:43:03,830
there are people that take him deadly

908
00:43:08,170 --> 00:43:05,720
seriously and that's what worries you

909
00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:08,180
and your podcast I can hear yeah yeah

910
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:10,220
definitely besides with the the

911
00:43:15,730 --> 00:43:12,890
alt-right or the you know the

912
00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:15,740
ultra-conservative and in his early

913
00:43:20,650 --> 00:43:19,940
career had the Waco stand off the Branch

914
00:43:24,940 --> 00:43:20,660
Davidians

915
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:24,950
and the Oklahoma City bombing had a

916
00:43:29,410 --> 00:43:26,570
nickel he would have been right on top

917
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:29,420
of Ruby Ridge as well I don't see him

918
00:43:32,770 --> 00:43:31,250
talking much about it that but that may

919
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:32,780
be about the time he was dropping out of

920
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:36,230
college yeah yeah cuz then he started

921
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,010
doing a local Austin Texas

922
00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:42,800
Vickey you started in some of the radio

923
00:43:51,020 --> 00:43:46,020
as a commentator then he got on to

924
00:43:54,109 --> 00:43:51,030
public community cable s XS and then he

925
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:54,119
eventually built his own show became

926
00:43:59,420 --> 00:43:57,119
anti-government had appealed to the

927
00:44:02,450 --> 00:43:59,430
militia movement that was happening at

928
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:02,460
the time it's the thing I normally find

929
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:04,410
about most conspiracies there's normally

930
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:06,930
a kernel of something in there like even

931
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:09,000
like something as wild as David Icke he

932
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:10,650
always starts with something reasonable

933
00:44:14,810 --> 00:44:12,359
like you ever wonder why the education

934
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,820
system doesn't really educate and why

935
00:44:18,620 --> 00:44:17,040
the justice system isn't really just and

936
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:18,630
you go oh yeah you might have a bit of a

937
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:19,710
point then and before you know it

938
00:44:23,359 --> 00:44:20,730
there's lizards

939
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:23,369
that's the PlayBook I mean that's the

940
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:24,690
only you know that's the best way I can

941
00:44:28,849 --> 00:44:26,609
describe it it's the conspiracy PlayBook

942
00:44:30,109 --> 00:44:28,859
you got a hook you got a hook them you

943
00:44:31,820 --> 00:44:30,119
know like you know when you write up a

944
00:44:33,859 --> 00:44:31,830
story or a book you got to get that hook

945
00:44:36,740 --> 00:44:33,869
just to get the person to start reading

946
00:44:39,190 --> 00:44:36,750
it and you build up on the crazy cuz

947
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:39,200
Alex Jones was really good at not

948
00:44:44,690 --> 00:44:41,910
bringing religion heavily into his show

949
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:44,700
early on you would get well maybe bits

950
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:49,170
and pieces now he's I think last time I

951
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:50,910
think when he was on the Joe Rogan

952
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:54,410
podcast he started talking about this

953
00:44:59,930 --> 00:44:57,570
dimensional beings that have influenced

954
00:45:02,810 --> 00:44:59,940
the church you know whatever he starts

955
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:02,820
bringing the the religion into it enough

956
00:45:07,359 --> 00:45:05,010
crazy to get you interested but maybe

957
00:45:09,620 --> 00:45:07,369
not enough to push you over the edge

958
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:09,630
like more like I guess that's why I

959
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:11,490
first saw him when he went did a tour of

960
00:45:15,380 --> 00:45:13,380
England and he was over there just

961
00:45:17,089 --> 00:45:15,390
winding things up banging on about the

962
00:45:18,740 --> 00:45:17,099
Second Amendment challenging people to

963
00:45:20,210 --> 00:45:18,750
fights on television all that sort of

964
00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:20,220
thing so that's why I saw him as an

965
00:45:26,089 --> 00:45:23,280
entertainer but and from this distance I

966
00:45:28,099 --> 00:45:26,099
I can probably take that that sort of

967
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:28,109
view of him but as you said close-up

968
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:29,760
there are people that genuinely think

969
00:45:32,780 --> 00:45:30,990
that there was going to be a second

970
00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:32,790
Civil War start on the 4th of July this

971
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:35,609
month exactly you know he's been

972
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:38,250
attacking the Democrats liberals and

973
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,220
he's been playing the a pizza gate have

974
00:45:45,260 --> 00:45:42,720
knows about Alex Jones he doesn't really

975
00:45:47,630 --> 00:45:45,270
have an original thought most of the

976
00:45:49,790 --> 00:45:47,640
stuff is coming from like a David Icke a

977
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:49,800
David Icke has talked about is is the

978
00:45:56,359 --> 00:45:53,010
reptilian you know this secret

979
00:45:58,010 --> 00:45:56,369
and the how they are interlinked with

980
00:46:00,580 --> 00:45:58,020
the Vatican and all this stuff

981
00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:00,590
well that's Alex takes that part he

982
00:46:06,410 --> 00:46:03,660
slides away the reptilian part but he'll

983
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:06,420
talk about you know these entities that

984
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:08,730
are controlling the Vatican or the or

985
00:46:16,609 --> 00:46:13,650
you'll have him Jim Marrs who's somewhat

986
00:46:18,740 --> 00:46:16,619
famous with the JFK assassination yeah

987
00:46:21,410 --> 00:46:18,750
he's fierce in his book crossfire as a

988
00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:21,420
classic in the in the field you're right

989
00:46:28,190 --> 00:46:25,590
exactly and he he takes from that some

990
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:28,200
of the stuff but the secret societies

991
00:46:32,780 --> 00:46:31,140
and so on he takes the pieces I kind of

992
00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:32,790
wish I could understand it a little

993
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:36,630
better or maybe I mean I work a day job

994
00:46:41,420 --> 00:46:38,310
so I don't have the time to sit for

995
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:41,430
hours trying to pop pile through the

996
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:43,590
1,000 of documents but I from what I've

997
00:46:48,380 --> 00:46:45,480
been able to tell and trying to figure

998
00:46:51,980 --> 00:46:48,390
out Jones really is just repeating what

999
00:46:55,370 --> 00:46:51,990
other more the crazier side has talked

1000
00:46:56,570 --> 00:46:55,380
about and then trying to blend in the

1001
00:46:59,390 --> 00:46:56,580
anti-globalist

1002
00:47:00,560 --> 00:46:59,400
the like foreign trade free trade

1003
00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:00,570
agreements

1004
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:02,700
you know the globalist globalist agenda

1005
00:47:09,490 --> 00:47:06,570
type stuff that seems to be his core but

1006
00:47:12,830 --> 00:47:09,500
he he'll take you know I the David I

1007
00:47:15,609 --> 00:47:12,840
what he can use to where it's not the

1008
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:15,619
crazy side but the really but it is the

1009
00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:18,810
almost crazy side I guess I I can't it's

1010
00:47:21,980 --> 00:47:20,760
hard to describe well Mike but what I

1011
00:47:23,420 --> 00:47:21,990
like about the skeptics card to

1012
00:47:25,849 --> 00:47:23,430
conspiracy is that it's more like a

1013
00:47:28,070 --> 00:47:25,859
weekly news report like it's not always

1014
00:47:29,810 --> 00:47:28,080
in-depth it's just like a breath of what

1015
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:29,820
has gone on that week and often you pick

1016
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:31,380
up on stuff the other shows might have

1017
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:32,400
missed because it might have been a

1018
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:34,560
brief mentioned somewhere actually I

1019
00:47:39,710 --> 00:47:36,210
wasn't sure if it was gonna work doing a

1020
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:39,720
weekly news thing it gives me a chance

1021
00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:42,960
to see how the tentacles kind of try to

1022
00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:45,750
push their way out to try to snare in

1023
00:47:52,210 --> 00:47:48,390
more and more people because I think

1024
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:52,220
most rank-and-file conspiracy believers

1025
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:54,180
they'll believe in one or two

1026
00:47:58,970 --> 00:47:57,210
conspiracies they may think that 9/11

1027
00:48:01,550 --> 00:47:58,980
was an inside job but they might not

1028
00:48:04,220 --> 00:48:01,560
think the ferret is flat or there's the

1029
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:04,230
chemtrail stuff you know as far as the

1030
00:48:06,750 --> 00:48:05,590
rank-and-file goes

1031
00:48:08,820 --> 00:48:06,760
you know they're taking a little bits

1032
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:08,830
and pieces but if you start if you give

1033
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:11,050
them a chance to take this piece and you

1034
00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:14,530
put this piece together and again the

1035
00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:17,470
conspiracy minded guess the psychology

1036
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:19,240
is you know being able to put these

1037
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:20,800
pieces together if you throw enough

1038
00:48:25,470 --> 00:48:22,890
these pieces out into the media

1039
00:48:27,540 --> 00:48:25,480
manipulated enough then you start

1040
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:27,550
getting young people believing and more

1041
00:48:31,260 --> 00:48:29,170
and more that there is a bigger

1042
00:48:33,780 --> 00:48:31,270
conspiracy other than what you

1043
00:48:35,310 --> 00:48:33,790
originally believed well this is what

1044
00:48:37,530 --> 00:48:35,320
everybody seems to be aiming for

1045
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:37,540
everyone's looking for a grand uniting

1046
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:40,690
conspiracy theory of them all and as far

1047
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:41,710
as what I can say I would have thought

1048
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:44,410
chemtrails is a good grand uniting one

1049
00:48:49,050 --> 00:48:46,570
but that's relatively new I think if the

1050
00:48:51,060 --> 00:48:49,060
Flat Earth theory would be the one

1051
00:48:53,010 --> 00:48:51,070
because if you had a flat earth every

1052
00:48:55,140 --> 00:48:53,020
single other conspiracy theory ever

1053
00:48:56,970 --> 00:48:55,150
would flow from that one maybe that's

1054
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:56,980
the grand United conspiracy theory of

1055
00:48:59,790 --> 00:48:57,370
Flat Earth

1056
00:49:03,030 --> 00:48:59,800
well it's been around for a while I mean

1057
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:03,040
the current Flat Earth believe it's

1058
00:49:09,420 --> 00:49:05,940
mostly it's a religious based it's

1059
00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:09,430
another theory or hypothesis I have is

1060
00:49:14,580 --> 00:49:12,670
that when you leave religion they start

1061
00:49:16,740 --> 00:49:14,590
abandoning the religion like I think is

1062
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:16,750
happening now but there are seeking out

1063
00:49:23,310 --> 00:49:20,890
like-minded people or trying to realign

1064
00:49:26,610 --> 00:49:23,320
themselves with their in their social

1065
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:26,620
groups so you get something to fill that

1066
00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:29,110
void that religion used to have so

1067
00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:31,180
there's there seeking out there finding

1068
00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:34,060
things like believing conspiracies and

1069
00:49:39,330 --> 00:49:36,550
so on I want to say this is also a part

1070
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:39,340
of the death throes of religion as the

1071
00:49:43,260 --> 00:49:41,440
as religions are dying out there are

1072
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:43,270
those who are still hanging on to those

1073
00:49:49,410 --> 00:49:46,440
last threads of what they believe in and

1074
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:49,420
the Flat Earth has all that that they

1075
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:51,520
there's I think two components here

1076
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:53,710
people trying to hang on to their old

1077
00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:55,810
religion or the religion that they were

1078
00:50:02,390 --> 00:49:58,960
associated with or they identified with

1079
00:50:05,790 --> 00:50:02,400
and of course then you also got them the

1080
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:05,800
something new to believe in oh oh but

1081
00:50:09,630 --> 00:50:07,690
but also Mike there is no shortage of

1082
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,640
genuine conspiracies in the world I mean

1083
00:50:13,350 --> 00:50:11,200
most courtrooms in the world everyday

1084
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:13,360
experience some sort of conspiracy going

1085
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:15,970
on of a criminal kind so you know you

1086
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:17,920
Biss basically imagining that written

1087
00:50:21,170 --> 00:50:19,089
large and hidden

1088
00:50:24,420 --> 00:50:21,180
from me I guess is what they're thinking

1089
00:50:26,339 --> 00:50:24,430
possibly you know there is the real

1090
00:50:29,099 --> 00:50:26,349
conspiracy I have I've talked about

1091
00:50:32,759 --> 00:50:29,109
that's but I did my first show talking

1092
00:50:35,359 --> 00:50:32,769
about the 1919 White Sox that was a real

1093
00:50:38,509 --> 00:50:35,369
conspiracy you know it was all hidden

1094
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:38,519
actually it was a reporter who had

1095
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:42,160
explored and questioned ask questions

1096
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:44,890
and eventually revealed that these

1097
00:50:50,579 --> 00:50:48,160
players were being bribed by gamblers to

1098
00:50:52,709 --> 00:50:50,589
throw the game so it really is there are

1099
00:50:54,450 --> 00:50:52,719
real conspiracies I try to make sure I

1100
00:50:56,489 --> 00:50:54,460
make that distinction then you start

1101
00:50:59,609 --> 00:50:56,499
getting into like the 9/11 stuff where

1102
00:51:01,920 --> 00:50:59,619
are they come in all sorts of shapes and

1103
00:51:05,219 --> 00:51:01,930
sizes just with 9/11 to I mean within

1104
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:05,229
the various factions there's also even

1105
00:51:08,609 --> 00:51:07,630
the way that the building 7 was supposed

1106
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:08,619
to being brought down you've got

1107
00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:10,690
controlled demolition you've got people

1108
00:51:15,209 --> 00:51:12,910
that think that it was done with an

1109
00:51:17,609 --> 00:51:15,219
orbital platform in space using some

1110
00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:17,619
sort of beam weapon I know there was

1111
00:51:21,779 --> 00:51:19,569
also the atomic bomb underneath the

1112
00:51:23,989 --> 00:51:21,789
building the facts bear out you know the

1113
00:51:28,380 --> 00:51:23,999
the building was structurally damaged

1114
00:51:31,410 --> 00:51:28,390
the fighters inside it had weakened the

1115
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:31,420
steel and it didn't melt it up you know

1116
00:51:36,569 --> 00:51:34,089
nobody's ever said that steel was melted

1117
00:51:39,059 --> 00:51:36,579
it's been it has been softened it been

1118
00:51:41,459 --> 00:51:39,069
weakened and having an engineering

1119
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:41,469
background I'm not a structural engineer

1120
00:51:45,479 --> 00:51:43,119
about working with structural types and

1121
00:51:48,479 --> 00:51:45,489
asking these type of questions once you

1122
00:51:50,249 --> 00:51:48,489
start compromising your you know your

1123
00:51:53,759 --> 00:51:50,259
steel inside your building they're gonna

1124
00:51:55,259 --> 00:51:53,769
come down well the best the best answer

1125
00:51:56,519 --> 00:51:55,269
to what happened to building seven is if

1126
00:51:59,219 --> 00:51:56,529
you could have a brief look at that

1127
00:52:00,719 --> 00:51:59,229
reverse shot or two that helicopters

1128
00:52:02,549 --> 00:52:00,729
took of the back of the building that

1129
00:52:03,870 --> 00:52:02,559
you rarely see there's only a few photos

1130
00:52:06,749 --> 00:52:03,880
of that but the back of the building

1131
00:52:08,999 --> 00:52:06,759
that building looks stuffed yeah see

1132
00:52:12,539 --> 00:52:09,009
like 9/11 I think is more become

1133
00:52:15,299 --> 00:52:12,549
political I guess to best explain this I

1134
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:15,309
think a lot of the modern conspiracies

1135
00:52:20,279 --> 00:52:17,680
and again make the distinction that

1136
00:52:23,370 --> 00:52:20,289
these are the you know the 911s the JFK

1137
00:52:28,019 --> 00:52:23,380
the you know those type of conspiracies

1138
00:52:29,609 --> 00:52:28,029
that we know are bogus but they stay

1139
00:52:32,940 --> 00:52:29,619
alive because I think it there's a

1140
00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:32,950
religious component and a political up

1141
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:36,940
component to it where again I on the

1142
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:39,280
show I've picked on libertarian tonight

1143
00:52:43,770 --> 00:52:41,260
do this not because I don't like

1144
00:52:46,380 --> 00:52:43,780
libertarians but the libertarians seem

1145
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:46,390
to seem to embrace conspiracies a little

1146
00:52:50,070 --> 00:52:47,410
bit more than normal

1147
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:50,080
I want to ask you Mike cuz you're doing

1148
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:51,760
a podcast on a weekly basis which is

1149
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:53,050
hard work

1150
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:54,910
what podcasts do you listen to what

1151
00:53:00,030 --> 00:52:56,650
sceptical podcast you listen to do you

1152
00:53:02,310 --> 00:53:00,040
have time to I try to well I I've

1153
00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:02,320
listened to cognitive dissidence

1154
00:53:07,140 --> 00:53:04,270
which also comes from Chicago in

1155
00:53:11,070 --> 00:53:07,150
[\h__\h] studios there yeah exactly

1156
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:11,080
I like this exploit exposing pseudo

1157
00:53:15,180 --> 00:53:13,810
astronomy it's that's right it's not on

1158
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:15,190
often enough because he's busy doing

1159
00:53:20,190 --> 00:53:17,410
real work and I got I got to interview

1160
00:53:21,870 --> 00:53:20,200
him on my show cuz I actually got it and

1161
00:53:23,370 --> 00:53:21,880
the great thing about exposing pseudo

1162
00:53:25,590 --> 00:53:23,380
astronomy is that when they talk about

1163
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,600
the face on Mars or they talk about

1164
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:27,280
something and there's a and out of space

1165
00:53:31,380 --> 00:53:29,650
consumer see he can bring the science to

1166
00:53:33,540 --> 00:53:31,390
it like very few people and I would

1167
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:33,550
point people towards the skeptical

1168
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:35,770
podcast opening arguments that is very

1169
00:53:39,390 --> 00:53:37,450
good for describing the American legal

1170
00:53:41,820 --> 00:53:39,400
system and how it works from time to

1171
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:41,830
time yeah that's definitely one - that's

1172
00:53:44,010 --> 00:53:43,570
definitely one I like listening to that

1173
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:44,020
one

1174
00:53:48,570 --> 00:53:46,090
look it's been great chatting to you

1175
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:48,580
Mike and now tell us where we can find

1176
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:50,320
you how often we can find you what's the

1177
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:52,240
best website to go to and how to get in

1178
00:54:01,610 --> 00:53:54,010
contact with you if you go to Mike

1179
00:54:05,340 --> 00:54:01,620
baller dot-com so that's a m-i-k-e-y cus

1180
00:54:07,890 --> 00:54:05,350
a skeptics guide to conspiracy you can

1181
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:07,900
subscribe to that through you know usual

1182
00:54:12,420 --> 00:54:10,570
Android or iTunes at places and you get

1183
00:54:13,710 --> 00:54:12,430
a weekly dose of what's going on from

1184
00:54:15,150 --> 00:54:13,720
your perspective and they'll be at least

1185
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:15,160
three stories every week because there's

1186
00:54:18,510 --> 00:54:16,810
never less than three new conspiracies a

1187
00:54:21,690 --> 00:54:18,520
week you reckon Mike that's what it's

1188
00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:21,700
that's where it's been going so look but

1189
00:54:25,470 --> 00:54:23,980
Mike bola a skeptics cards a conspiracy

1190
00:54:27,810 --> 00:54:25,480
look him up and look thanks for joining

1191
00:54:29,340 --> 00:54:27,820
us on the you know here we are at the

1192
00:54:30,810 --> 00:54:29,350
skeptic zone here and now is this I

1193
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:30,820
think that Australia you know that you'd

1194
00:54:34,020 --> 00:54:32,050
like what's your main fact you know

1195
00:54:38,910 --> 00:54:34,030
about Australia all the animals want to

1196
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:38,920
kill you well when I go outside ah but

1197
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:40,240
look at the thing is we have got as many

1198
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:41,680
guns either so we've just got to hit

1199
00:54:45,690 --> 00:54:44,170
them with rulers and they're metric

1200
00:54:46,490 --> 00:54:45,700
rulers too so they're not as big as

1201
00:54:48,140 --> 00:54:46,500
yours

1202
00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:48,150
I'm trying to think of something funny

1203
00:54:51,050 --> 00:54:49,980
to go love this look it's been great

1204
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:51,060
chatting to you because so there's

1205
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:52,290
always something to talk about in the

1206
00:54:55,070 --> 00:54:53,280
world of conspiracies

1207
00:54:56,780 --> 00:54:55,080
thank you skeptics cards a conspiracy

1208
00:54:59,359 --> 00:54:56,790
Mike bola it's been great talking to you

1209
00:55:04,090 --> 00:54:59,369
live from Chicago thank you everyone for

1210
00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:16,750
[Music]

1211
00:55:20,410 --> 00:55:19,150
in Radford here if I can have a minute

1212
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:20,420
of your time I'd like to shamelessly

1213
00:55:24,490 --> 00:55:22,400
plug my new book it's called

1214
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:24,500
investigating ghosts and scientific

1215
00:55:28,690 --> 00:55:26,930
search for spirits examines ghost

1216
00:55:30,490 --> 00:55:28,700
hunting in ghost investigations from a

1217
00:55:32,890 --> 00:55:30,500
historical cultural and evidence-based

1218
00:55:35,710 --> 00:55:32,900
perspective from the Victorian era to

1219
00:55:37,810 --> 00:55:35,720
modern TV ghost hunters it is in a way a

1220
00:55:39,550 --> 00:55:37,820
follow-up to my 2010 book scientific

1221
00:55:41,830 --> 00:55:39,560
paranormal investigation how to solve

1222
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:41,840
unexplained mysteries that book was more

1223
00:55:45,580 --> 00:55:43,090
general covering everything from

1224
00:55:47,860 --> 00:55:45,590
psychics to crop circles to monsters and

1225
00:55:50,170 --> 00:55:47,870
ghosts but I realized that ghosts are a

1226
00:55:52,030 --> 00:55:50,180
special category not only are ghosts the

1227
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:52,040
most popular paranormal pursuit but

1228
00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:53,690
ghost hunting also has its own set of

1229
00:55:58,030 --> 00:55:55,760
assumptions and challenges the book will

1230
00:56:00,170 --> 00:55:58,040
be available soon for under 20 bucks and

1231
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:00,180
is currently available as an e-book

1232
00:56:03,330 --> 00:56:01,330
[Music]

1233
00:56:05,580 --> 00:56:03,340
for more information on the book and me

1234
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:05,590
check out Benjamin Radford com please

1235
00:56:23,099 --> 00:56:06,490
check it out Thanks

1236
00:56:28,329 --> 00:56:25,480
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1237
00:56:31,299 --> 00:56:28,339
zone now a sharp eared listeners would

1238
00:56:33,309 --> 00:56:31,309
have noticed during this show my voice

1239
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:33,319
varies a little bit you some

1240
00:56:37,180 --> 00:56:34,730
experimenting with this new wonderful

1241
00:56:39,940 --> 00:56:37,190
microphone I'm adjusting the levels and

1242
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:39,950
using the sound box the sound booth and

1243
00:56:45,010 --> 00:56:41,690
then not using it then and holding it

1244
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:45,020
differently so it's all very interesting

1245
00:56:51,130 --> 00:56:48,130
it's all experimentation but I think

1246
00:56:53,859 --> 00:56:51,140
with a little bit of tweaking I'll get

1247
00:56:57,940 --> 00:56:53,869
the best results now just to remind of

1248
00:56:59,920 --> 00:56:57,950
those people in Canberra in a nation's

1249
00:57:03,490 --> 00:56:59,930
capital the Canberra skeptics this

1250
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:03,500
Tuesday the 24th of July from 6:30 p.m.

1251
00:57:09,339 --> 00:57:06,770
are having a free lecture strategy

1252
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:09,349
strikes back how Star Wars explains

1253
00:57:14,980 --> 00:57:12,559
modern military conflict this is going

1254
00:57:17,799 --> 00:57:14,990
to be at the Belconnen soccer club with

1255
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:17,809
dinner to follow the speaker is Mick

1256
00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:20,089
cook who hosts the dead pression podcast

1257
00:57:24,970 --> 00:57:21,529
and is passionate about encouraging

1258
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:24,980
critical thought on war among military

1259
00:57:29,650 --> 00:57:27,770
professionals and policy makers always

1260
00:57:31,779 --> 00:57:29,660
an interesting talk at the Canberra

1261
00:57:34,140 --> 00:57:31,789
skeptics if you can go along more

1262
00:57:37,450 --> 00:57:34,150
information at facebook.com slash

1263
00:57:40,029 --> 00:57:37,460
Canberra skeptics if you know anybody in

1264
00:57:42,609 --> 00:57:40,039
the in the Canberra area who might be

1265
00:57:46,450 --> 00:57:42,619
interested please let them know that's

1266
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:46,460
strategy strikes back how Star Wars

1267
00:57:53,170 --> 00:57:48,970
explains modern military conflict and

1268
00:57:56,589 --> 00:57:53,180
you can socialize with other like-minded

1269
00:57:59,460 --> 00:57:56,599
people coming up on next week's show we

1270
00:58:03,130 --> 00:57:59,470
have well I can't see into the future I

1271
00:58:06,339 --> 00:58:03,140
don't know reports possibly you know

1272
00:58:08,140 --> 00:58:06,349
what I can't wait until the opportunity

1273
00:58:10,690 --> 00:58:08,150
arises where main art and I can do a

1274
00:58:14,079 --> 00:58:10,700
field report together both using you

1275
00:58:16,990 --> 00:58:14,089
know our wonderful yellow tech iyx em

1276
00:58:18,250 --> 00:58:17,000
microphones and I think that opens up

1277
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:18,260
all sorts of interesting new

1278
00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:20,690
possibilities I really like the way this

1279
00:58:24,859 --> 00:58:23,390
microphone in a crowded situation can

1280
00:58:28,099 --> 00:58:24,869
sort of

1281
00:58:31,700 --> 00:58:28,109
suppress the background chatter so you

1282
00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:31,710
can hear the interview in progress and I

1283
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:33,150
can't thank the listeners enough the

1284
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:34,470
listeners who support the skeptics

1285
00:58:38,269 --> 00:58:36,569
aren't financially it's only because of

1286
00:58:40,059 --> 00:58:38,279
you the show keeps going and it's only

1287
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:40,069
because of you that I'm able

1288
00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:42,690
occasionally to buy very nice newer

1289
00:58:50,329 --> 00:58:46,440
equipment and my one hope is that I can

1290
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:50,339
continue to inform and entertain on the

1291
00:58:54,289 --> 00:58:52,740
podcast now wonder where those skeptics

1292
00:58:56,359 --> 00:58:54,299
own cats are I shoot them out of the

1293
00:58:58,640 --> 00:58:56,369
studio before we got people wanting to

1294
00:59:01,539 --> 00:58:58,650
hear more of them they don't say very

1295
00:59:16,660 --> 00:59:01,549
much dinner time they'll say something

1296
00:59:19,489 --> 00:59:16,670
let me see I'll just open the door huh

1297
00:59:23,059 --> 00:59:19,499
here's one now it's Henrietta because

1298
00:59:27,289 --> 00:59:23,069
I've got the back scratcher out come on

1299
00:59:31,099 --> 00:59:27,299
you know you're next there we go oh she

1300
00:59:32,359 --> 00:59:31,109
likes that hey she doesn't say much so

1301
00:59:36,259 --> 00:59:32,369
they're very shy when it comes to

1302
00:59:37,749 --> 00:59:36,269
interviews alright don't you go no she

1303
00:59:41,499 --> 00:59:37,759
wants some more

1304
00:59:49,339 --> 00:59:41,509
use your imagination folks there we go

1305
00:59:51,559 --> 00:59:49,349
hmm okay no she's a happy cat now so

1306
00:59:53,690 --> 00:59:51,569
until next week this is Richard sona's

1307
01:00:00,890 --> 00:59:53,700
and Henrietta the skipper's own cat

1308
01:00:02,690 --> 01:00:00,900
signing off from Sydney Australia you've

1309
01:00:05,319 --> 01:00:02,700
been listening to the skeptic zone

1310
01:00:12,019 --> 01:00:05,329
podcast please visit our website at

1311
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:12,029
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

1312
01:00:18,170 --> 01:00:15,529
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

1313
01:00:21,470 --> 01:00:18,180
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

1314
01:00:23,749 --> 01:00:21,480
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

1315
01:00:25,029 --> 01:00:23,759
facebook page or leave a review on

1316
01:00:27,309 --> 01:00:25,039
itunes

1317
01:00:30,699 --> 01:00:27,319
you can also support the sceptic zone

1318
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:30,709
via patreon or PayPal the sceptic zone

1319
01:00:35,799 --> 01:00:34,130
podcast is an independent production the

1320
01:00:37,959 --> 01:00:35,809
views and opinions expressed on the

1321
01:00:40,269 --> 01:00:37,969
sceptic zone are not necessarily those

1322
01:00:52,900 --> 01:00:40,279
of Australian skeptics or any other

1323
01:00:54,699 --> 01:00:52,910
skeptical organisation and I think it's

1324
01:00:56,769 --> 01:00:54,709
probably appropriate the first time this

1325
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,779
microphone is actually used is in a

1326
01:01:01,449 --> 01:00:58,880
public may not good evening and welcome

1327
01:01:03,009 --> 01:01:01,459
to Newtown although it is probably 3

1328
01:01:04,809 --> 01:01:03,019
a.m. in the morning or it could be 11

1329
01:01:06,339 --> 01:01:04,819
a.m. I don't really know but that's why

1330
01:01:07,689 --> 01:01:06,349
we have these microphones Richard so

1331
01:01:09,819 --> 01:01:07,699
that we can record whatever we're doing

1332
01:01:11,620 --> 01:01:09,829
at whatever the time of the day even if

1333
01:01:14,439 --> 01:01:11,630
we don't know what time it is as we're

1334
01:01:16,209 --> 01:01:14,449
looking around here again people aren't

1335
01:01:17,859 --> 01:01:16,219
really hushing rushing or flashing in

1336
01:01:20,049 --> 01:01:17,869
new town but they keep it to themselves

1337
01:01:22,329 --> 01:01:20,059
but you must be happy with this purchase

1338
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,339
I'm happy and I would like to thank the

1339
01:01:27,339 --> 01:01:24,559
listeners the supporters of the sceptic

1340
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:27,349
zone who subscribed via patreon or

1341
01:01:31,539 --> 01:01:29,779
micropayments with paypal it's because

1342
01:01:33,999 --> 01:01:31,549
of you I was able to afford this

1343
01:01:36,729 --> 01:01:34,009
wonderful yellow tech professional

1344
01:01:39,489 --> 01:01:36,739
microphone and I look forward to many

1345
01:01:41,159 --> 01:01:39,499
happy times using this to get reports

1346
01:01:43,239 --> 01:01:41,169
for the skeptics and now this is the

1347
01:01:44,859 --> 01:01:43,249
microphone you've been using for some

1348
01:01:46,209 --> 01:01:44,869
years might may not that's correct it's

1349
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:46,219
an industry standard it's quite

1350
01:01:49,419 --> 01:01:47,599
expensive normally you've got it for a

1351
01:01:51,130 --> 01:01:49,429
good price on ebay I've gotta say it's

1352
01:01:53,049 --> 01:01:51,140
about you've got off about 300 dollars

1353
01:01:54,579 --> 01:01:53,059
less and I got mine and I got on mine

1354
01:01:58,299 --> 01:01:54,589
was a couple of hundred dollars it's

1355
01:02:00,399 --> 01:01:58,309
basically a microphone that when you

1356
01:02:01,929 --> 01:02:00,409
record into it it holds the audio for

1357
01:02:06,429 --> 01:02:01,939
about seven seconds and in that seven

1358
01:02:08,169 --> 01:02:06,439
seconds it treats it to what is the the

1359
01:02:09,669 --> 01:02:08,179
voice what is the background what do you

1360
01:02:11,169 --> 01:02:09,679
want to hear what should I do with the

1361
01:02:12,609 --> 01:02:11,179
level and it does all that in seven

1362
01:02:15,189 --> 01:02:12,619
seconds and puts it down to an SD card

1363
01:02:17,140 --> 01:02:15,199
and as you'll find and as you've heard

1364
01:02:18,729 --> 01:02:17,150
all my reports at on the skeptic CERN

1365
01:02:21,789 --> 01:02:18,739
they're fantastic in fact I would point

1366
01:02:23,229 --> 01:02:21,799
you towards the Maynard story when I

1367
01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:23,239
went to see the Pet Shop Boys I was

1368
01:02:27,489 --> 01:02:26,209
actually interviewing people in front of

1369
01:02:29,140 --> 01:02:27,499
the main speakers of the Pet Shop Boys

1370
01:02:30,849 --> 01:02:29,150
were they were performing and

1371
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:30,859
you would not know it you can hear the

1372
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:32,240
sound but it's not interrupting what

1373
01:02:35,980 --> 01:02:33,529
they're doing it's a fantastic

1374
01:02:37,630 --> 01:02:35,990
microphone and last week folks the

1375
01:02:40,359 --> 01:02:37,640
introduction to the show we did at Maine

1376
01:02:42,490 --> 01:02:40,369
art studios was done on his yellow tape

1377
01:02:44,170 --> 01:02:42,500
microphone so we've just opened up the

1378
01:02:46,450 --> 01:02:44,180
packet that we're in a pub celebrating

1379
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:46,460
with the glass of champagne Cheers cuz

1380
01:02:54,190 --> 01:02:50,650
Maine I found this for me yes yes mmm

1381
01:02:55,809 --> 01:02:54,200
and I'm absolutely delighted and once

1382
01:02:58,210 --> 01:02:55,819
again thank you to the listeners to

1383
01:02:59,500 --> 01:02:58,220
support the show financially without you

1384
01:03:01,930 --> 01:02:59,510
there'd be no show and without you I

1385
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:01,940
couldn't afford to get this microphone

1386
01:03:07,660 --> 01:03:04,490
and I hope that it serves me well for

1387
01:03:09,490 --> 01:03:07,670
many years to come indeed it will and